Six Skills To Help Men Outgrow Porn (LIVE)

Learn the G.R.O.W.T.H. model for helping men outgrow porn:

G = Going First
R = Repeating & Rephrasing
O = Observing
W = Weaving & Waiting
T = Telling The Truth
H = Having Fun!

Welcome to the Husband Material Podcast where we help Christian men outgrow porn. Why? So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship. My name is Drew Boa, and I'm here to show you how. Let's go.

Today is a special episode. You can see I'm in a different place because I'm on the road. I'm actually in the middle of a little bit of time off in order to celebrate my daughter because we are bringing another baby Boa into the family later this month and this is our last adventure with her while it's still just the three of us. So we are just a little bit away from our house. We went camping close to the beach. So that's where I am. I'm on the road and we're going to see how this works. This is a bit of an experiment. And I also wanted to let you guys know that because I will be taking a little bit of time off. Don't worry. These podcasts and videos will continue to come out every week. I am making a little bit of a change in that for the next few weeks. You'll be hearing less from me individually and more from interview guests. I have done a lot of interviews lately, some great interviews lined up. So I will not be very present in the Facebook group. This gives you all an opportunity to step up as leaders. What I was going to say is I will be taking a step back from the Facebook group for a few weeks as soon as baby comes and I will not be recording as many individual episodes, it'll be more interviews.

And while I'm away, you will get a chance to put into practice what I am sharing with you right now. Because today's episode is all about leadership. It's about how to lead one another to freedom. Whether you are in the very beginning stages of finding freedom from porn, and you have a couple of allies or accountability partners, as we used to call them, and you want to know, how can I be a great accountability partner or what kind of accountability partners should I look for? Today I'm going to answer those questions and more importantly, for those of you who have the dream and the ambition, and maybe even the calling from God to lead other men to freedom, I am going to share with you six skills which I have found to be the most important skills. As I've been working as a coach for the last two years, I've been leading groups for the last eight years, these skills have proven to be the most important. But first, before I share with you the six skills you need to be a great ally and lead men to freedom. I want to share what you all have said recently in the Facebook group. I asked, "What do you value in an ally?" And I said, consistency. Some of you said a multi-dimensional relationship. It's not just focused on freedom from porn, not one sided. Someone who listens, someone who cares, intentional commitment, empathy, someone who can call me out when needed and more importantly, call me up. Remind me of my identity in Christ, who I am. An ally is someone who you can share secrets with, someone who doesn't lecture, someone who doesn't judge me or make me feel unworthy. Someone who is loyal, who wants to do life together. Compassionate, loves God, truthful, available, accepting, supporting challenging, maintaining confidentiality, sensitivity, a fellow sufferer, someone who loves and operates out of love. So, all that is great. All that's helpful for me to hear, and I hope that's helpful for you to hear that these are some of the qualities that we aspire to.

I want to go a little bit deeper today and talk about skills. A skill is not necessarily a requirement. So if you want to lead men to freedom or you want to be a great ally, it's not like you either have to have this ability already, or you're not good enough. These skills are things that I've been growing in, that I've been developing in, that I've been seeing make a huge difference with the men that I help. This is actually a little bit of a sneak peek—behind the scenes—into how I do this coaching thing. And the six skills, I'll start with a certain letter and they spell growth. G R O W T H. So you can remember them. And the first skill you need to be a great ally and to effectively lead others to freedom is to Go First. That's the G in GROWTH.

Going first. I've seen this time and time again when we're sharing our stories. If I share my story first, that I'm giving everybody else in the group, the gift of going second. For those of you who have done one-on-one with me, if you've done group with me, if you're in Husband Material Academy with me, you will see that in every action step, in every challenge I'm asking you to do, I will go first. I will complete it first, and I will give you a window into my heart. And you'll see some of the specifics of my story, my sexual triggers, my sexual fantasies, which empowers you to talk about yours. So here's my first question for you guys who are here. How have you seen someone else go first? What effect does it have on you when someone else goes first in being vulnerable and sharing deeply? Tell me about a time when somebody else went first and how it made you feel. What difference did it make? Hank says, "It makes me feel more comfortable." Henry says, "It removes the shame." Isn't that important? Shame, self-hatred is the core of unwanted sexual behavior. Can you think of how powerful it is? And you can remove someone's shame about something by showing them that they're not alone. Not just telling them they're not alone, but demonstrating it by going first. Jared says, "It creates a safe space for honest conversation." If there's not safety, there will be no growth. There will be no freedom if people don't feel safe. How can we help them feel safe? By going first. You know what? Going first takes guts. It's hard. That's why it's such a gift to others. If you really want to lead others to freedom, are you willing to go first? Are you willing to share when no one else is sharing? Are you willing to be more detailed? Put yourself out there, be more vulnerable than you feel comfortable with. It is terrifying every time, always. And each time you share a little bit more deeply and you go first, you'll see that these things don't disqualify you from being loved, and you'll see more and more the power of how God uses our vulnerability. You know, it's one of my favorite verses 2 Corinthians 12:9 and following, it's when we actually have the words of Jesus in one of the New Testament letters saying, "My power is made perfect in weakness." And Paul says, "Therefore, I will boast all the more in my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest on me."

If you want to be an ally who is filled with the power of Christ, if you want to be a leader who is leading, not in your own strength, but in the strength of Christ, go first in vulnerability. Lead in weakness. Let's see what happens. Burton is saying, "Somebody who goes first sets the standard of how deep we can go." That's so important. No one's ever going to go deeper than the leader. Typically not. Or if you're in an ally relationship and you're like, "Man, this feels really shallow I wish it was deeper." Go first my friend. That's the secret. Jacob says, "When someone went first, it gave me the permission to be a weaken and flawed individual, too, and lose the facade." Amen. That's exactly right. This is what happens when we go first with sharing. And I want to be clear here. I'm not saying make it all about you. Talk about yourself all the time. You can be very succinct in going first, just your one or two sentences that you absolutely hate about yourself or a part of your story that was so difficult, just share it in one or two sentences. For me, I can talk about a sexual fetish for orthodontics that I have and immediately, shame drops. I can talk about losing my son who was born and lived for four hours a year and a half ago. And immediately, you're connected to my suffering. You don't have to share your testimony for 30 minutes to be able to go first and open people up. It's amazing. It's amazing what happens when you go first. Tim says, "When someone goes first, it lets me know I'm not alone in my struggles." So that's the first thing. That's the first part of leading men to freedom is going first. You know, if you want to start a group at your church, share your story first, maybe even publicly. If you want to have a really strong connection with your ally, first of all, ask permission if you can share a little bit of your story and if there's a part of your story that you're like, I'm not sure if this is appropriate to share, ask permission. This is something that came up in Husband Material Academy lately, people are asking about, well, how much should I share? Ask permission, be respectful. And if they give you permission, go first and share. All right. So that's my first tip. Go first.

You ready for R? G stands for Go First. R stands for Repeating and Rephrasing. When you are talking with an ally or if you're a coach and you're talking with someone that you're leading, or even if you're in any kind of leadership role, even in your marriage, even with your kids, this is such a critical skill. Repeating and rephrasing, and it's deceptively simple. So if you come to me telling me, "I just relapsed last night. I use porn. I masturbated and I felt so horrible about myself when I woke up in the morning, I did it again. I can't believe it. I thought I had come so far and now I feel like I'm right back at the beginning." One of the best things to do with anyone sharing any kind of struggle with you is just to repeat and rephrase what they're saying. So if you told me that I would say something like, "It sounds like you've had a really hard day yesterday and the past 24 hours and when you're feeling a lot of shame right now, is that right?" Just simply repeating and rephrasing. Now repeating is the easiest one, right? At least it feels easiest because I'm literally not adding anything. I'm just saying what you've said. So you use porn last night and then you did it again this morning. And if they say, "yeah", they say, "you got it," then you're building trust, you're building connection. It's actually called attunement. It's something that happens in our brains with mirror neurons, where, when we see somebody mirroring back to us, what I'm presenting, there's a connection. And actually we feel attached. We feel heard, understood, and known, and this is one of the most critical things for all humans. What we all need is to be heard and understood. To feel felt. And we do this by repeating and rephrasing.

Maybe some of you are like, yeah, I know someone who's really good at that. And maybe some of your, like I know I'm not very good at that. There's a great video about this, about just validation and repeating and rephrasing called, "It's not about the nail." I encourage you to watch that video. Excellent example of the power of rephrasing and repeating rather than trying to solve somebody's problem or giving advice when it hasn't been asked for. This is something that's very common in accountability relationships. Somebody will talk to you about their porn relapse and you're like, what could you do differently? You know, how can we fix your problem? And the problem is in the process, the person doesn't feel heard. They don't feel felt they don't feel understood with anything. Someone's bringing to me before I say anything, before I give any kind of advice before I even seek to really kind of analyze and interpret their story, I'm just going to be repeating. I'm just going to be rephrasing to make sure I'm getting it because you know what, sometimes I think I know what they're saying, but I don't. And I can't validate that unless I do some repeating and rephrasing and they say yes. And sometimes I'll do some repeating and rephrasing and they'll say, "Oh no, you didn't get it." And then that shows me, okay, let me try again. So, you're not feeling angry. Are you feeling sad? You get the idea. So, when someone simply repeats and rephrases, what you are saying back to them, what effect does it have on you? My second question, I'm just going to ask you guys a questions after each one of these. You know, what would be kind of funny? If you simply repeat and rephrase what I just said, that would let me know that you're listening; that would let me know that you understand; that you're picking up what I'm putting down; that you're smelling, what I'm stepping in. What did I just say? Steve says "When someone is really good at repeating and rephrasing, it's not about fixing but listening." Absolutely. And even if I'm not trying to fix the person, but I don't take this step of repeating and rephrasing what they say, they can still feel like I am. And that's important because even if I'm not trying to fix them, but they feel like I am, safety is gone. No trust, no connection, no attunement. Ken says, "repeating and rephrasing lets me know I'm heard and validated." Absolutely. Henry says, "it makes me feel like I'm not crazy. Someone else gets it." What a gift. And we are built for that. We are hard-wired for this attachment and attunement as infants. And A huge part of whether or not we learn this skill comes from the way our primary caregiver did or did not attune to us as children. Was it consistent? Was it connected? And it doesn't have to be all the time. It's not like you have to be a perfect parent to get this. I guess what I'm saying is if you find that this is really hard for you, that's okay. It's largely a result of growing up with a certain attachment style. It's not something that you chose. It's not something that you can have a lot of control over, especially when you're a little kid. The good news is because our brains can change, because of neuroplasticity, we can get better at this. Hank says, "it helps to have more empathy for the person." Yeah. That's actually a good point when we repeat and rephrase, it actually changes our internal state as well. So it can grow our kindness and empathy and our feeling of compassion for the other person. Just by going through this discipline of repeating and rephrasing of what they're saying, are you seeing the power of this? That first one G, Going First, was really about clearing away obstacles. This one is kind of about setting the stage, you know, I'm repeating and rephrasing so that I'm in tune with you. Now, we can do some work. Now, we can get somewhere. Now, we can go deeper. When we have this foundation, Miles says, Paraphrasing creates a simple sense of empathy." Absolutely. Jacob says, "Validation is what's needed. Not a solution." Yeah, exactly. And in some ways, validation is the solution. In so many ways, we're turning to pornography for attunement, for connection, for intimacy, right? Feeling like this video or whatever it is that the person in the video understands me. They get me there, they're in tune with my desire. So when I can have that with another human being, it's so much more powerful. It's the real thing that porn is just a cheap substitute for.

So repeating and rephrasing as an ally helps them know I hear them and that connection is made. That's what Burton just said. Absolutely, man, you get it. You just repeated and rephrase what I said. Well done. Tim said it lets me know I understood that you're listening and that you care. Okay, so if you want to be an ally who is known as a great listener, someone who cares; if you want to be a leader, a coach, a counselor, a therapist who is really effective, this is one of those skills you can't do without. And by the way, just from a practitioner standpoint, it feels really silly and simple to literally just be like repeating what the person said. The point is this: It doesn't take much to generate this level of attunement. It's very, very simple. However, there's more than just repeating and rephrasing the words that people say, which is where O comes in. O stands for Observing. Communication is so much more than just the words we say or don't say. It's non-verbal. So when you're with an ally, when you're with someone you're leading, what is their face saying to you? What is the volume of their voice or the quiet volume of their voice? What is their pacing saying to you right now? I'm talking really fast. And right now I'm slowing down.

Observing is the skill of not only picking up on those non-verbal cues, calling them out and saying, "Hey, it looks like you really lit up there when you were talking about snowboarding" or "Your face fell when we began talking about your mother" or, you know, when you think back to that time, "when you were 10 years old, a big smile comes on your face and when you remember that one friend who moved away at that time, you shut down a little bit." Being able to pick up on those things is huge. And by saying it, by literally verbally observing what you're seeing, you give the other person a chance to say, yeah, absolutely. You know, you're, you're getting me, you're getting it. And for them to grow in a little bit of self-awareness and if you get it wrong and you're like, no, I was actually just happy because I just smelled something that smelled really good.

You know, we're not always going to get it right. And that's okay. That's kind of this process of, to me. And that's why this is a skill. This is something we develop. So in repeating and rephrasing, we are tuning to what's being said. In observing, we're tuning to what's being shown — what the person is showing by volume, pacing, even the melody of their voice. You know, when I talk like this and I end on a low note, sounds really sad doesn't it? When I start low and then I get really high, there's an energy there. There's an enthusiasm. When we pick up on these things, it helps a whole lot. This is one of those critical skills that when you're able to do this, people feel felt, people understand, people say, "this guy really gets me", "this guy really knows me," when you're able to repeat and rephrase and observe.

Jared says, "I think this mirrors Jesus's attitude towards us." Bingo. Absolutely. The God who sees us, the God who knows us, who picks up on the things that we don't even realize about ourselves. You know, even in my own counseling, I won't realize it. But sometimes my non-verbal communication is just totally under my awareness. And when I have somebody who can mirror it back to me and observe what's happening on my face, what's happening in my voice. Even on Zoom, even on digital video streaming, it's giving me such a gift. It's holding up a mirror and saying, this is what I'm seeing. Because you know what as individual, we usually can't see ourselves very clearly. We need one another. It's part of how we're created in the image of the Trinity as relational beings. So this is such a gift we can give one another. And I'm wondering, what is the value to you of observing or being observed? When someone notices now, all of a sudden you got quiet for awhile and you're spaced out. Maybe if someone notices how all of a sudden you tensed up and your breathing got really tight, what effect does that have on you? When someone picks up on it and observes it?

Miles says "attunement is so much better when we can see the other person. See them eye to eye." Thanks for offering that by doing these kinds of events. You're welcome. I mean, that's part of why I've decided to be a video creator and that's part of the power of videos — that we can attune. You can see my face. We can have more of a relationship. And if you're listening to this as a podcast, that's okay too. There is so much value in face-to-face communication. Even if you're on a phone call with somebody though, even if all you have is their voice, you can still pick up on so much non-verbal.Volume, pacing, all that stuff. Henry says, "observing opens up my understanding of myself." Isn't that wonderful? Isn't that great? That's what we all need. That's a huge part of the healing process. If you really want to heal from porn is you gotta have self-awareness and that's what we're cultivating inside Husband Material Academy on our weekly Trigger Tuesday live coaching sessions and Miles saying, "I totally saw this on trigger Tuesday this week." Absolutely, right? That's what it's about. It's beginning to understand why. Why does a specific type of porn appeal to me? Why am I triggered by a specific person or event or circumstance? Why, why, why? We can begin to understand where all these things are coming from when we pick up on the non-verbal communication and what's being said in our interactions with one another as we share our stories, because all the stories from the past are showing up in the present, not only in our words, but in our faces, in our voices. So I've given you three, so far, three skills to lead men to freedom and to be a great ally. Going first, clearing the way so that there can be a bubble of safety so that people feel comfortable to enter in. Like they're not crazy, right? Repeating and rephrasing is just huge for establishing attunement and connection. And then observing, picking up on some of those clues, reading between the lines. Burton is saying, "by the way you expressed that I can tell this is important to you." Awesome. So you're observing my body language. That's so good. Steve says "I don't shut down when I see that someone understands me. That's really important too." And maybe if you are leading others, or even if you're a spouse or a parent, or just a friend, you will notice. There are times when the other person shuts down, when they tune out, when they space out, when they zone out. By repeating and rephrasing, observing, we can reestablish that connection, you know, Earth to Drew. It can bring you back when you're far away. And that's one way of thinking about sin being far from home.

And when we repent, when together we connect and we seek God together, we're coming home. And so these skills are in a way leading one another home — home to your body. Even if you don't understand what your body is saying, what your body is telling you. Leading you home to connection, friendship. Leading you home to the God who sees you, to Jesus, who, who went first right in the incarnation. He went first, he became human and he had attuned to us. He spent 30 years just listening, just being one of us before he started his ministry. All of that is attunement and so much observation, right? I don't know. I see these six skills in Jesus as well. Right? So G is going first. R -repeating and rephrasing? O is observing. W is my favorite. The one that I am working on personally the most right now. This is a skill I am wanting to become more competent in it's the skill of Waiting and Weaving, or Weaving and Waiting.

So what do I mean by that? When you're going through stories of someone's childhood and you meet with them week after week, or you have an ally who you've been meeting with for months. In weaving, you begin to notice parallels between different things the person has said. You begin to kind of connect the dots in their story a little bit and notice if there might be something significant there. So for example, in weaving, I had someone in one of my private groups who was talking about a specific type of porn that appealed to him and really a specific body type of the person who seemed attractive. And I asked, "is there anyone else in your life who is close to you? Who matches that description?" He said a couple people and I waited. And then he said, "Actually that really describes my mom."

And later he said, "my mom was the first person I thought of. And I just didn't want to say it." This is weaving together different parts of the person's story, so that, "Oh, I see a connection here between what I'm sexually harassed by and my mother. That's something that I've had to work through in my story too." Or, on the other hand, you could have someone who is saying that "I get really, really triggered, it's really, really hard for me when someone raises their voice." In weaving, I'm going to ask that magic question. Okay. Well, I wonder who in your life has raised their voice with you in the past? And maybe he'll say my dad. It's the skill of weaving, but there's also the skill of waiting. Because if we ask a question like that, you know, when have you felt this way before, when have you seen this kind of thing in the past, the person's not always ready to answer. And our temptation is to jump in and to give us hint or suggestion. And in that story, I talked about earlier where this guy eventually said, "yeah, it reminds me of my mom." I was thinking that the whole time I was like, does it remind you of your mom? But I waited and I didn't say anything. And then he came to that conclusion himself. And that was so important for him. You know, in waiting, we allow the person to make the connections because it's so much more powerful if they make the connections than if we make them for ourselves. So waiting is huge, you know, and as you're doing, remember the different details people say. Keep them in the back of your mind, but don't necessarily assume, you know, how it all fits together. Just try things out. We've connect the dots in their story and see if it fits. And if it doesn't, fine. I'm not the perfect weaver, I'm not the perfect listener of stories. I'm growing this, it's a skill that we can develop. So weaving is awesome and it works best when you're also really good at waiting. Giving the person as much time as they need to respond without jumping in.

Here's one of my favorite phrases that I learned from adult learning theory. Many people don't know I have a passion for adult learning and so much of what I do is informed by adult learning theory. Don't steal the learning. If you think you have an answer for someone, don't give it right away. See if they can come up with it on their own. Create a space for them to do that. And maybe there's a right time to share it. But as much as possible, don't steal learning. Let them come to the conclusions, let them make the realizations. Cause they'll stick when that happens. So how have you seen the power of weaving and waiting? Steve says, "waiting as hard because silence can be awkward." Absolutely. And for me, waiting is hard because in my past, when there was silence, I didn't get a lot of attuned minutes so some of my fears of abandonment creep back up or feeling like, "Oh, we're not connected in this moment because nothing's being said. Now, what can I do to reestablish connection?" And I get frantic and frenzied instead of waiting.

Yes, it can be awkward. And that's one of the things I'm growing in is being more comfortable with the awkward silence. So I'm asking you a question and sitting in the awkward silence, when have you seen the power of weaving and waiting? Hank says, Wwaiting and weaving, help the person to find out the why of their story." Absolutely. That's it? Bingo. Burton says, "I had this experience waiting on myself to make connections. And when I finally did, it was life-changing." Awesome! Great job, Burton. Rick says, "Waiting gives them time to think and process." Bingo. Tim says, "When you wait, it allows me to feel and process the emotions from the experience." Exactly. Henry says, "When there is silence, people are thinking." Yes, exactly. Right. So if we interrupt that silence, we might be interrupting their thinking. That's counterproductive. That's self-defeating. We don't want to do that.

Waiting and weaving. That's W. My computer is at 8% and it's fading fast so I'm going to try to get through these two last letters here. T and H. T stands for Telling the Truth. And by this, I don't just mean confessing sin. That is important, and get very, very specific and detailed when you confess sin. I think it's most helpful to talk about the very specific types of porn you're accessing to talk about the very specific sexual fantasies that you have; to talk about what you put into the search bar, to talk about what was most sexually arousing to you. Most people are not comfortable doing that, and that's important. But what I want to highlight here is telling the truth in a different way. No, confession is about so much more than just my sins, my struggles, my failures, defeating experiences. Confession is something we do for our faith. We confess our faith. We tell the truth. And when we affirm one another, when we encourage one another, when we build one another up. Right now, I'm in a class for my daughter who is just entering preschool. And it's a class on child development and they say for every piece of criticism you give for your child, they need five doses of affirmation. There needs to be a five to one ratio of affirmation, appreciation to criticism and challenge. Can you give this to your allies? Can you give this to the men you're leading because this is what we all need. If you understand that porn is a pacifier and it's a young child within you who needs to outgrow it, who is struggling sexually, then you will see that if you want to successfully lead men to freedom, if you want to lead yourself to freedom, if you want to lead others to freedom... Lavish affirmation, praise, notice improvement, notice growth whenever you can. Celebrate every single step somebody is taking towards freedom. Every single time they prioritize their recovery. Every single time you see them follow through on an assignment, you see them show up to a meeting. You see them take a risk. Affirm it. Appreciate it. Validate it. Love on them. This is huge because if all we do is confess our sins to one another, it becomes defeating, it becomes discouraging. And you fizzle out, you stagnate and your accountability, your relationships will plummet. Your leadership of others will feel like a burden.

When it becomes about celebrating the image of God and each other saying, "Hey man, here's how I see Christ in you. Here's how I see the Holy spirit in you. Here's how I see God working in your life. Here's how I see your beauty, your strength, your glory, your goodness." My God! It is so powerful. Guys, let's do that. Let's do that. Let's give the gift of telling the truth to one another. Not just about the bad stuff, but about the good stuff. And this is something that I feel like is spiritual breathing. In confession, we exhale the toxins of all the struggles and the sin within us. And also we inhale affirmation and appreciation from others. We need that as our brothers in Christ. As 1 Thessalonians 5 says, "Build one another up." This is a critical skill. If you want to lead others to freedom, if you want to be a great ally, appreciate, affirm, tell the truth. Not just about the bad stuff but the good stuff too. Steve says, "If we didn't get that growing up, we are still seeking it." Absolutely. Rick says, "Agreed. It's amazing what words of affirmation can do for a brother." It gives life. You want to be a life giving leader, affirm. Appreciate, lavish affirmation and grace because guess what? That's who God is. He does not ignore all of our growth. Yes, He's aware of our sin and He's aware of how far we've come; of how much He has done.

And, and to appreciate one another and to appreciate myself, it's not selfish. It's worship. Say, "God, thank you so much for the development. For the desire you're cultivating in me, even if I'm not as free as I'd like to be, but I desire it more than ever." He sees that, He delights in that. Things such as truth and grace must be balanced. I used to think, we have to have kind of a 50% grace, 50% truth. No, a 100% grace, a 100% truth. And so that's what the T is — Telling the truth.

G R O T, ready for the H? The H is probably my favorite one, partly because I'm a seven on the Enneagram. The H is Have Fun. I have experienced the most healing and transformation with my allies and with those who have been in leadership over me, when we're able to just have fun. Sexual recovery can be so serious. It can be so daunting. It can be so difficult. Can we lighten up? Can we have a little bit of fun? This is something I'm actually growing into because I feel like, especially in our Facebook group, we tend to have more serious conversations. I kind of want to bring a little bit more fun into it. And, maybe some of you can help me brainstorm about that. When we can laugh; when we can unwind. You know, sometimes porn is the most fun that we're having in a given day. As sad as that is, it's a sliver. It's a very pathetic substitute for real fun, recreation, rejuvenation. And I find that if all I know about somebody is their darkest secrets, it tends to be really awkward. If we have a relationship where we enjoy some of the same things and we know more about each other, we're involved in each other's lives more than just the sexual side, then it actually enhances the sexual side because there's more comfort. There's more safety. And I'm going to want to hang out with this person more. I'm going to want to show up to our meetings more. So I think bond is not optional; It's essential. As one of my professors said, "No laughter, no learning." But that's again. No laughter, no learning. John says, "live stream with a monkey suit."

We're going to have to come up with something for the next live episode to make it more fun. How have you seen the power of joy and fun and laughter? Miles says, "Bond requires courage to leaning into. Joy can feel risky sometimes." That's so true and actually, sharing our joy with one another is even more vulnerable than sharing sorrow. And this is something I feel when it comes to dancing. I'm often afraid to dance, to share my joy, to release it because that's actually very close to my heart, even closer than sorrow. And if we share joy, there's this possibility for disappointment; for rejection. And Miles says, "Eventually the joy fades, but moving through that fear and not allowing it to cripple us from enjoying life is such a gift." Amen. That's so true. So actually having fun is brave. Wow. Thank you for that insight,Miles. Sean says, "It's so good, man. The best results in my clients come from the ones who laugh." Yeah. I think about my clients. The exact same holds true. Steve says, "I imagine Jesus laughed too." Absolutely. I think he is a lot funnier than we imagined. Rick says, "I'm serious by nature. I didn't play much as a kid. I need to work more in this area. "Me too, man. Tim says, "laughter has helped me come out of some of my most difficult times." Beautiful. Guys, this is so good. Sean also says, "I learned recently that my driver to self-care is play. When I get to play, I come alive." Laughter and fun are all part of play. That's just another way of saying what I'm trying to say here about having fun play. Let's play. Cause you know what? If porn is a pacifier for a little boy, one of the best ways to build trust, to help them heal and grow is to play. That's what children need is play.

So these are the six skills guys. These are the six skills: Going First, Repeating and Rephrasing, Observing, Weaving and Waiting, Telling the Truth and Having Fun. I love that. Thank you for all of your insights. I look forward to seeing all the insights for everybody who is watching the replay. If you are listening to this, thank you so much. And I will see you on the other side of this pregnancy. On the other side of having this child. Hope you enjoy the interviews. If you really like the interviews and you want to see more interviews, let me know. And maybe I'll just make 75% of the episodes interviews. In any case, my friends, so grateful for you. Always remember, you are God's beloved sons and in you, He's well pleased. Maybe even delighted, maybe even enjoying having fun. So go have fun with Jesus.